The following is a transcript of an interview given by Rob to Charlie Wildish, 5th dan karate instructor and Chief instructor at the "Holistic Karate" martial arts club.
Part 1
Rob, was Shotokai Karate your first martial art, or did you try anything else first before settling with Shotokai?
I confess, apart from feeling in awe of Kwai Chang Caine, star of the 70’s Kung Fu TV series, I had zero interest in learning martial arts. I began because I was a community beat police officer on a rough council estate and wanted to get to know some of the local yobs… I mean young men! Several of these lads trained at the local Shotokan dojo so I joined. Therefore my first taste of martial art was through the practice of Shotokan.
Who were your first teachers and how did they influence the young Rob Jones?
I can’t remember the name of the Shotokan “sensei” I met. But my first real teacher was a man called Adrian Baker (see below) and also Mitsuske Harada sensei. Both brought wisdom and martial philosophy to my table and opened my eyes to what could be achieved and the wider context.
It’s perhaps worth noting that Mitsuske Harada sensei considers himself to be a teacher of orthodox shotokan
Although you've adapted along the way, is it fair to say that Shotokai is still at the base of what you teach with other influences added on? And what was it about Shotokai that appealed to you to want to commit so much of your martial arts journey to it?
I remember the actual moment vividly. My friend who had introduced me to Shotokan was a large man and physically strong, a 1st kyu Shotokan karate-ka. There had been some disagreements with the way our club was being run (at that time by a husband and wife combo). Consequently my 1st kyu friend had, in the course of his employment, met a man called Adrian Baker quite by chance. At the time Adrian was a 3rd dan practising under the tuition of Mitsusuke Harada sensei. My friend invited Adrian to our club one evening. During the session Adrian asked to accept my friends punch. This was not an uncommon practice within the Shotokai world. Accepting an attack is a core skill. On this occasion my friend hit Adrian, oi-zuki chudan with as much strength as he could muster. Adrian was knocked a little but there was no profound effect. Then the roles were reversed and Adrian hit my friend with a chudan oi-zuki. This time there was a profound effect as my friend struggled to breathe and fell to the floor.
I’m not a particularly big or muscular man and neither is Adrian. However our Shotokan man was / is and I remember thinking “I want to punch like that”! And so the seed was sewn and I joined Adrian’s club. For me I was intrigued by the explosive energy created and delivered in a “relaxed” way. I don’t want to be muscle bound, I don’t want a suit of armour, I prefer to be able to run if I can.
In my experience most can’t make the connection, or perhaps don’t understand or believe how words like, “soft” and “relaxed body” and sensitive”, fit with the common perception of “strength” and “physical power”, which I believe is why Shotokai is not as popular as the more established karate schools. The best metaphor I can quote is that of a garden hose pipe. With no water running through, it is limp and flaccid but turn a jet of water on and it becomes immensely powerful and unless focussed on a target, it can have a mind of its own.
So my journey is twofold, to remove tension and stress so that my garden hose is soft and supple and develop and create energy (high pressure water). The intriguing search for this yin and yang contrast is why it appealed and sustains my interest over nearly 40 years.
I know from talking to you, that you longer describe yourself and your school as Shotokai, as you've had a number of influences from other teachers. I believe the main non-Shotokai influences comes from Patrick McCarthy and his Koryu Uchindi. Can you tell us how this come about and how it has influenced your approach to teaching and training?
Actually I have two major influences. The first, are the Japanese Yutenkai group. Their seniors, many of whom I am lucky enough to call friends, were all students of Shigeru Egami sensei, a man probably known to most Shotokan scholars as a key student of Funakoshi sensei.
25 years ago there was significant political and practice differences between many very senior members of the Shotokai and the Shotokai Hombu dojo in Tokyo, resulting in the formation of the Yuten (Egami pen name) kai. It is out of respect for the Yuten-kai that I no longer use the term Shoto-kai.
I first met them 15 years ago through a mutual friend in Italy. Since that time I have practised in Japan, Italy and here in UK with Yutenkai masters and 5th dan instructors. One 5th dan master in particular Isao Ariga sensei was probably the man I admired the most. If I had a role model it would be him. Sadly he has passed away and faced a premature death with immense dignity and courage. I remain in contact with his widow and make a point of paying my respects to his memory when in Japan.
I was also introduced to McCarthy Hanshi through another Italian friend. On our first meeting we enjoyed good times both on and off the dojo and I am also honoured to call Hanshi my friend. I try to meet with him at least once a year either in UK or more often, in Italy. He’s an impressive man whose karate knowledge and experience is as deep and extensive as any. I like what he does and the explanations underpinning them, and have adopted some of his practices into the syllabus of my group. I’m also impressed by the manner he conducts himself and the way he leads and manages a worldwide karate movement with a huge following.
Are there any other teachers who have had an influence on you and your approach to martial arts? And if so, what were those influences?
My personal practice and philosophy is also influenced by the two most impressive martial artists I have ever had the good fortune to practice with and be taught by, Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang and his student Karel Koskuba. Both men, but particularly Karel, are understated and unbelievably inspiring. Their skill is matched only by their humility and willingness to give their time to others.
Finally I am fond of Iain Abernethy. His karate knowledge and application is great but moreover I am drawn to him as a man. I feel he and I are, in many ways, more similar than it appears on the surface.
Having absorbed these influences, how would you describe your teaching today and what makes you unique from most others?
I was a frontline police officer and detective for 32 years. I have formed opinions based upon those experiences. People seem reluctant to acknowledge, but the fact is the chances of encountering personal physical violence, for the majority of people, is very low. Of course some people do sadly fall victim, but if you remove what Iain Abernethy refers to as consensual fighting i.e. usually young men brawling; people who become vulnerable through the effects of excess alcohol, and discount domestic violence victims from the equation, you’re left with a large portion of the population. These people are unlikely to ever find themselves facing violence and therefore martial art appears to offer little value because they don’t feel in need of “self defence”.
Zenshin dojo focuses on defence from self, good, natural posture, efficient use of the body structure and encouraging all manner of skills, abilities, qualities and behaviours that are valuable in everyday life and transferrable to modern living. It’s a far more holistic approach to well being.
Learning how to stay calm under pressure, non reliance on power and domination, sensitivity, discipline and motivation are all key elements. Of course I teach technique, kata application etc, but these do not really interest me as much as time spent finding ways to improve and develop the yin and yang contrast, I mentioned earlier. I have “used” my karate training several times throughout my police career but in a way people never expect or truly understand.
I read on one of your websites once, (though I can't find it now) that you are sometimes referred to as “the friendly Sensei”. I title that you seemed a little bit embarrassed about. Having trained with you and your club a couple of times, I can say that's a fair description and that your whole club has a well ingrained ethos of friendliness to others.
With so many other martial arts classes being very formal and almost militaristic in format, was this a deliberate approach by you, or just your own natural personality shining through?
Yes. I have adult teaching qualifications to degree level and one thing accepted as fact in post compulsory education teaching is adults learn best a) in a relaxed environment; b) adults don’t appreciate their behaviour being judged, c) adults learn best by problem solving. It’s my belief that the formal militaristic classes do not and will not attract the majority of adults. Of course they will appeal to some but the appeal of that kind of training will tend to attract younger people into the dojo, although I appreciate there are always exceptions and it’s easy to be too simplistic.
I’ve spent my entire police career employed within a quasi military, certainly disciplined and hierarchal organisation. In my experience, the best “leaders” are those who support, value and guide rather than barking commands. Encouraging people to do difficult challenging things because they want to, not because they are complying with an order!
The instructor at the Shotokan club I first attended was the formal, militaristic type, as a young novice I once asked him why it was important to perform a particular exercise. “Because I said so” he bellowed. I did what he asked but lost immediate respect for him and his teaching. Others may like that style, I did not!
I end this answer by controversially stating I’m English, not Japanese and I have no desire to be Japanese despite visiting the country several times and having numerous Japanese friends whom I care deeply about. I like their culture and traditions, but I’m not Japanese. Of course we have some (although not much) formality and we acknowledge the heritage of karate through the teachings of Funakoshi sensei etc, but I sense many clubs are “formal” for “Formality” sake. There is a romantic narrative of the Samurai, Shogun, bushido and all that goes with it, I know this is immensely appealing, but not to me.
